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Talk:Ultra Instinct
Translation Can we ensure that the kanji really translates to "Master of Self-Movement"? Every source I look at has migatte (身勝手) as "selfish" and gokui (極意) as "main point." I literally do not understand where this translation is coming from. (Could just be me though. I am by no means fluent.) [[User:GokūBlack10|'The Dark Messiah']] (Talk) 14:44, October 8, 2017 (UTC) :You would be correct on this. This term seems to be untranslatable to some extent akin to Great Monkey Transformation, except this one is more a term that makes more sense to the japanese, where it does not translate with the 'flick of tongue' (like Aha says) in our native tongue of Engrish. The term is better explained as "Secrets of the Self" or "beyond the Self" as the kanji refers to oneself, one's place, one's position. The context is mainly explaining the Deepest Level possessive to the user's self. I know it seems like some hokey "mumbo jumbo" but that's what it is. I'm not sure where DB wiki or herms got that translation or "Ultra Instinct". I hope future games name this properly as this could always be "flavor text". I'll try to research the card to see if this is the case. I would say the best translation; would be "autonomous movement". As the kanji seems to note that. [[User:New World God| ]] • [[User_talk:New World God| ]] • 14:33, October 9, 2017 (UTC) Speculation The dialog "Lets look at Ultra Instinct" could refer to looking at the ability. Same goes for the title of episode 116 referring to the ability. --Sarutobii2 (talk) 07:21, November 13, 2017 (UTC) I have an issue with calling terms with non-canon sources. Transformations are pretty much "game-only" terminology. This is what caused such an "issue" with Vegeta Baby. It bothers me because there has never been a single time that "Transformations" were seen as a sub-sect of techniques, in the D7 they are referred to as abilities, additionally in the "D4" classifications they easily fit "Attack-Assisting" or support moves. Now i'm not saying that no one in the series has used the word "transformation" but this is completely non-canon, and comes from DB wiki's MO on documenting the series and would I prefer us to go down a Naruto wiki style on approaching this how they approached "Sage Mode". Also what makes Ultra Instinct and Ultra Instinct (Transformation) different? If Omen is a game-only technique name, it should be a name there, where as "Ultra Instinct" should be the main article. The terms are used interchangeably. I also have great contention with the name of "Ultra Instinct" as it completely ignores the technique's name and feel that we should name it by its actual name, everyone just easily accepted this name with no scrutiny. I don't think an "Appeal to popularity", as we know the majority of DB fans are blissfully ignorant on the series, taking the name of "Ultra Instinct" based on an "appeal to authority" because FUNi and Crunchyroll is a bad precedent, I mean they are known for inaccurate subs. I've avoided this form for a while because we know little about it. But I hope to at least spark some debate over the name. As there is better names that would suit it. 13:50, November 13, 2017 (UTC) : There isn't anything wrong with using the term "transformation". The Daizenshuu uses it in the descriptions of "Super Saiyan", and the term has been used in the series. Roushi even referred to this state as a "form" — short for "transformation" — and I only used it in the URL, I didn't change anything infobox wise. We dropped "transformation" in the infoboxes the moment we got the information from the databooks, but it is still a decent descriptive term to use. I consider this to be different from the standard Ultra Instinct because it is '' a transformation. When Whis and Beerus use this technique (Beerus consciously and Whis passively), they never exhibited this or an aura of any kind. No, this follows the Saiyan standard of transforming to matser a new level of power. If Beerus had exhibited this aura and these silver eyes, then I'd believe it should be merged with the Ultra Instinct article. But due to the fact that Goku, while he doe use Ultra Instinct, uses it so differently, this form merits its own page. I have a great loathing for the term "Ultra instinct", but I do believe using it works best for us in terms of phrasing. It's easier to write "Ultra Instinct" in a sentence than "Master of Self-Movement" or "Secret of the Self-Centered", and it flows better. This is why we have the "literal english" portion of the infoboxes, for unique cases such as these.—Mina Țepeș 18:23, November 13, 2017 (UTC) ::Sorry for the late response. But here is my main issue with this page, it’s based on complete speculation, that in the series was never noted to be different. It is not my onus to prove that form doesn’t exist, as it would be yours to prove that it ''does exist. At the moment we do not have evidence in the series to support that this is “saiyan form” I would have to ask for a citation that has confirmed this. Juxtaposing two speculative positions does not answer the original question. Additionally the series has never note this “Form” to be different, which is a fact, until we get a later confirmation of this by the series. The show itself said it in fact is “Ultra Instinct” and never once made the claim that this was “Goku’s specific version” all we know is that Beerus and Whis (from movie) used this same technique. There was never once a mention that this was different. Again that is you’re claim to prove, not mine. “No, this follows the Saiyan standard of transforming to matser a new level of power.” Again, when was this specifically mentioned? It makes us look really bad when we go out of our way to purposely misconstrue the series based on bad subs. This is on the level of “Furious Mutation”. We should wait to get confirmation. I don’t want to get into the semantics of “transformation” as I don’t think its important to argue against. And I know I can deconstruct this claim. Given that the false equation between "form" and "transform" in the japanese language have different kanji but again, this is not really important. But returning to the point we should await until we get confirmation. You cannot be contradictive on your position “when you tell us to wait” (which you were right on when it came to Blue Kaioken). I don't think non-canon info should be used to cite this. You literally just told us that we cannot use "title cards" or episode previews. Because by the same argument "Furious Mutation" would have been just of an appropriate page. My disagreement with you on this is civil. My intention is not to go out of my way to annoy you. 19:32, November 14, 2017 (UTC) Merge & Beerus I think Beerus uses this in BoG I would still merge the page until we get specific details that they are different. If anyone has the BoG movie can see Beerus in the same state, albeit different ki as all Hakaishin have been shown with purple aura, refer to the episode where they are each mad at the 7th Universe. Also to look for the example when he potentially used it, was in his battle with the Dragon Team. I would like to merge these pages, given that the most recent episode didn't confirm that this was different. Non canon information is the least accepted form of canon, and should never contradict t-canon material. A joint page will allow us to at least speculate to whether Beerus had this form. Of course Beerus' potential usage is trivia since we don't know. I think given all the information there is no reason to split them up. As this is not a variation, nor confirmed to be such. I just want us to be right about this. This is not a "transformation" it's an attack-assiting technique that has only shown the purpose of allowing the body of Gokū to dodge and move without wasting movement. -- 18:54, November 24, 2017 (UTC) Ultra Instinct in DBS movie? That to me seems more like and artist stylization by the movie for something that's been part of Super Saiyan Blue (Goku displaying white before turning into blue) since Super, like here.--[[User Talk:Lulcielid|'Lulcy']] 02:16, January 12, 2019 (UTC) : As I've heard a dozen times from others on Twitter. Even if it's an easter egg cameo, it is still Ultra Instinct. Silver hair, silver aura, silver eyes. It is far and away from how Goku usually turns Blue.—Mina Țepeș 02:34, January 12, 2019 (UTC)